THE
MATTER OF THE HISTORIC VENETI-NAMED PEOPLES IS CURRENTLY IN DISARRAY
BECAUSE OF SEVERAL THEORIES: HERE ARE THE THEORIES AND COMMENT
ON THEM FROM OUR FINNIC BOAT-PEOPLE PERSPECTIVE, IN ORDER THAT THE
READER CAN BE ORIENTED BETTER TO THE ARTICLE THAT FOLLOWS BELOW
- Andres
Pääbo nov 09
A)THE
TRADITIONAL VIEWS IN ACADEMIA
The traditional academic community has interpreted the historical and
archeological data as best they can, without getting into the ethnicity
issues. It is known from Polybius that the Veneti had Gallic
appearances (meaning they interracted with Gallic peoples to the north)
but 'spoke their own language'. Because Polybius could not identify the
language with any that he as a Greek historian would have known,
academia has accepted that the language was somewhat exotic.
FINNIC THEORY RESPONSE: My criticism of the
traditional views is that in general traditional scholars have never
considered that the interior of Europe may have had major long distance
trading peoples analogous to the Phoenicians or Greeks on the
Mediterranean and that the major Veneti
could have been one such people
- establishing colonies everywhere along their interior trade routes to
assist their activities. Travelling from one
colony to another, they kept their language uniform over perhaps the
entire Europe. Insofar as associated peoples (manufacturers and
marketplace managers) interracted with the traders, their language
could have been a lingua
franca. It is already generally agreed that
western European originally had 'non-Indo-European' language (of which
Basque is
one, and it is believed Etruscan, Ligurian and Iberian were others). It
could very well have been of a Finnic nature, since Finnic is
non-Indo-European too, and the Finnic traditions brought into into play
skills for making boats and riding them long distances for
long periods of time - as needed for long distance trading.
But in any case, it ought to be logical that there would be major
traders inside Europe on the major rivers just as there were on the
perifery seas, and that these peoples would have had many facilities to
assist the activity (terminals, markets, portage trails, etc) After
all, the seagoing traders (like Phoenicians) also had colonies large
and small along the south Mediterranean coast and along the Atlantic
coast down into Africa and up towards Britain. This is the absolute
best explanation for the distribution of Vene-type names as well as the
mysterious "Urnfield Culture"
TRADITIONAL VIEW ON THE
ADRIATIC INSCRIPTIONS: The assumption from centuries ago -
other than
an initial thought that they were a 'northern Etruscan' - is that the
inscriptions were INDO-EUROPEAN, possibly an ancestor of Latin, and not
NON-Indo-European like neighbouring Etruscan and Ligurian.
This view
was motivated by the fact that a number of inscriptions had
words
that seemed Latin - like .e.go and dona.s.to paralleling
Latin
words meaning 'I' and 'give'. But after a couple of centuries
interpreting the
inscriptions little headway has been made. At one stage it
was thought to be
in an ancient language called "Illyrian" because there is an ancient
reference to Illyrian Veneti.
Finally some linguists said - let's just
assume
it is generally Indo-European and force what is known about
Indo-European onto the incriptions as much as possible, using lexicons
and grammar that would have existed a over a couple thousand years ago.
The result was summarized by LeJeune in the 1980's in Manuel de la Langue
Venete. Being done in a scholarly way within academic
frameworks,
the academic world assumes
without scrutiny that it represents the
correct hypothesis and results. Example: ENONI
. ONTEI . APPIOI .
SSELBOI SSELBOI . ANDETIC
OBOS ECUPETARIS is intepreted by Micheal Lejeune in Manuel de la Langue Veneté
with (bracketed words assumed) ‘Burial
vault of Ennonios for (his brothers) Onts (and) Applios (and for)
himself, (all three) sons of Andetios’.
FINNIC THEORY RESPONSE The criticism
of the latest traditional approach is that it assumed a priori that
Venetic is Indo-European and thus the lexicon and grammar that results
is really words and grammar from Indo-European models FORCED
onto the
Venetic. Some results have been achieved, but in the nature of
what one sees in obituaries, gravestones, today (a custom that appeared
in Roman inscriptions too), in which there is only a few actual words,
and then the remainder are proper names of people and deities. The
example given above is an example. Note above that Ennios, Onts,
Applios, Andetios are names, without any meanings, and the the
bracketed parts are assumed. The problem with assuming meaningless
names is that - as any mother looking at books of baby names knows -
names have always had meanings in their language of origin. For these
names not to have meanings, they would have to come from other
neighbouring language wherein they have meanings. So what do we
have? Almost nothing - a few assumed Indo-European words forced into
the inscription, and the rest are meaningless names and assumed
(bracketed) thoughts. And yet given the nature of inscriptions on
gravestones and texts in obituaries, it seems possible. But it is a
method that can be used to force ANY language family onto Venetic, with
the same results -obituary-like,
abbreviated,
dedications or obituaries. However, having been made in academic
environments by academics, everyone assumes, without investigation that
these are acceptable. But note: this approach ASSUMES a priori the
inscriptions are Indo-European, and forces it on the inscriptions. It
does not reveal what it really is. It CAN still be NOT Indo-European,
and produce other results, either like this, or hopefully better by not
following this methdology.
B)THE
'SLOVENIAN-VENETI VIEW' THAT THE VENETI BACK TO THE
EARLIEST WERE SLAVIC IN ETHNICITY.
This view of the Veneti
has been clearly fuelled by Slovenian nationalism. The
Slavic Slovenians acquired their own country only in the 1990's. Since
the
1960's or so West Slavs (Poles, Czechs, Slovakians, etc) had
decided
that the West Slavs arose from the Venedi
who occupied the Polish
regions . Slovenians, located somewhat further south, and classified as
South Slavs, were unhappily deemed South Slavic and supposedly
arrived there by migrations in the 6th century. But the Illyrian
theory of the Veneti, abandoned by standard Academia, seemed to be a
way of connecting Slovenians to the Veneti. What if they were descended
from the Illyrians, and did not arrive as South Slavs, and were
actually ethnically surviving Adriatic/Illyrian Veneti? What a concept!
(The basic theory is presented in Veneti: Builders of European Civilization,
1996, Savli,Bor,Tomazic) The Illyrians, moreover had been
connected in past academic explorations with a wealthy archeological
"Lusatian Culture" that existed in the Vistula water basin around
1200BC. Well then that was where the Slavic culture began! They
migrated this way and that, and even the Germans and Celts arose from
them! Meanwhile, Toponomic and inscription analysis was employed
to find Slavic language everywhere. The Slovenian language was deemed
to have archaic features, and therefore seen to be close to the
original Slavic that spread everywhere.,
FINNIC THEORY RESPONSE: Not
long ago linguists took note of how Finnic language were filled with
words related to boats and water-oriented life, and that their words
related to farming came from Balt and Germanic languages. At the
same time the Balt and Germanic languages had plenty related to
farming and life in meadows and highlands, but their words pertaining
to boats and seafaring appeared to come from Finnic origins. The
Balts (represented by Latvians and Lithuanians) according to
archeology, originated from the higher grounds around Moscow, and
migrated to the Baltic coast in late Roman times or later. Thus I
find it fascinating to read Slovenian writings contemplating the Veneti
role in amber trade, east west travel from the Baltic to Brittany, and
so on. And
yet Indo-European ethnicities do not have boats or even a nomadic
trader life in their original lore or language. They are derived from
agriculturalists and pastoralists. In the book mentioned above
Savli goes to great length to show that there are names in the
mountains near Slovenia that have intricate meanings in Slovenian such
as 'end of small valley', 'prominent formation lower than
the main peak', 'large solitary rock', 'field on steep slope that is
worked with a hoe', 'snow-covered shady mountain slope',
'prominent formation below the main peak', 'field on steep
slope', 'dried-out bed of a mountain torrent', 'formation extending out
of the main body', 'grassy slope without trees', 'sharp edged cliffs',
and so on and on!! Such complex ideas about the mountain environment
are reduced to single words!! Savli uses this as evidence
Slovenians have been there a long time, and that they were not originally
people of the Pripet marshes where there are no mountains. And he has a
point. The Pripet marshes from which the slavic migrations supposedly
began, probably had Finnic peoples, the Venedi. They became Slavic
speaking and then gave rise to the West Slavs, I agree that if
Slovenians has complex mountain-related ideas condenced in single
words, well Slovenians must have been mountain peoples. But that now
leads to a contradiction: if we view Veneti as trader peoples.
How can you be high on the mountains tending to pasture animals, and
also down at the rivers, and along the coasts? Clearly it is necessary
for the Slovenians theory to permit TWO interdependent ethnicities to
coexist, especially if the two ethnicities are so extremely different
in their location and their way of life. One is water-oriented,
nomadic, found in lowlands where water is, and the other is
land-oriented, sedentary, and in highlands where water isn't. If one
takes this dualistic perspective, then much of the Slovenian theory
regarding a presence by Slavic ancestors here and there is acceptable.
But only those parts stemming from the land-based people and not the
boat-based people. There are two stories here, not one - a story for Finnic boat people traders and a story for sedentary farming Indo-Europeans.
ORIGINALLY the Lusatian Culture was really a trade culture based on the
wealth generated by the amber trade (originally up the Vistula to the
Dneiper and Black Sea) The time of the Lusatian Culture began the
Golden Age of amber trade, It was the richest time. It would be at this
time that the established Veneti traders would have expanded their
activities and from that arose the many colonies with the Urnfield
culture. But this expansion would have occurred via the
boat-peoples and speakers of Finnic language, and not Slavic. "Veneti" translates via Finnic as "people of the boats" (vene 'river boat' + t,d plural marker) which
is more natural than alternative more abstract interpretations. Besides
the above theory that deals with a deeper past, most of the Slovenian
discussion relates to the post-Roman period, especially from about the
6th century onward. The arguments seem to imply that if one can prove
that the Veneti (Vindo, Wends,etc) were Slavic say in the 7th century,
that it means they were Slavic back back back to very ancient times. It
does not allow for assimilation at any time. It treats language as if
it were genetic. This is not reality. You cannot
backward-project. The Finnic theory has no problem with the various
Veneti peoples assimilating into Slavic in the south Baltic,
Celtic in Brittany and Wales, and into Latin in northern Italy in the
post Roman era. In fact it is even predictable. Trader people were always a minority and very genetically dilute because they were so spread out.
We only need to ask similar questions regarding the fate of the
Phoenicians. There too the Roman Empire destroyed their trade system,
and the individual colonies merged into the dominant sedentary peoples.
The
Finnic theory says that the Venedi in the south Baltic had long
assimilated into Slavs by the 7th century, and themselves become
propogators of West Slavic. The Slovenian theorists will expound
endlessly on all the evidence of peoples with Venedi-like names in the
era after the 6th century. But I already accept it - the Venedi
assimilated into Slavs already centuries earlier, just as Veneti
elsewhere assumed Latin, Celtic, even Germanic etc.. The issue is
the nature of the language before the Roman Age, not after. It would be
similar if the discussion were about the ethnicity of Phoenicians.
Would we claim the Phoenicians spoke Latin back to ancient times
if we find evidence that descendants of a Phoenician colony in Spain
used Latin in the 7th century? One has to be very very careful about
interpreting data from a post-assimilation period. There are always a
number of generations after which a language has been lost, and yet the
people still maintain their name and identity a while. (This can be
seen in many places today where the identity is alive but the language
is not - Livonians in Latvia for example: the original Finnic language
is no longer in daily use, and yet there is so much pride in the
identity Livonians have a place in Latvian parliament. Similarly
one can find in 17th century documents 'proof' that Curonians spoke
Latvian, and yet also evidence that government was taking steps to
outlaw the use of the Curonian language. All in all the Slovenian
theory is very simplistic, and does not address the realities of ethnic
co-existence, the nature of the original peoples as reflected in the
original language, the fact that language should not be treated
as if it were genetic, and that language is a tool that can be lost
very quickly even as some larger sense of identity endures a while
longer. Language is fleeting and needs to be used, cannot have
competing stronger languages, to survive.
SLOVENIAN-VENETIC VIEW ON
THE ADRIATIC INSCRIPTIONS:
Having advanced the theory that the
Slovenians were descendants of the local Veneti, it was absolutely
imperative for them to discover that the Adriatic Veneti inscriptions
be revealed to be Slovenian-Slavic. The Salvi-Bor-Tomazic
book presented Bor's interpretations of a HANDFUL of the known
inscriptions. I studied the interpretations carefully and really found
no scientific methodology. I found results that seemed somewhat absurd
or
unnaturally poetic. The method is to listen to the inscription
and hear a vaguely Slovenian sentence, and then first find common
Slovenian words in some locations, and then begin filling in the
awkward parts that are initially inexplicable (those parts that in the
traditional methodology were treated as meaningless names) with
ANYTHING available in dialects and other Slavic languages.
Even so, the result tended to be absurd, or ridiculously
poetic (not just my own view, but also I came across the view of an
unbiased archeologist on the internet who labeled them absurd and not
likely to be inscribed on the objects they were on). Unless one
knows Slovenian well and the analyst is completely transparent, the
distortions are invisible and your accepting the
result is a matter of trust. The analysts may believe that what they
have
done is legitimate, and we do not accuse them of deliberate fraud -
just naivete and lacking in scientific methodology - in particular
statistical laws. . Example: ENONI
. ONTEI . APPIOI .
SSELBOI SSELBOI . ANDETIC
OBOS ECUPETARIS is intepreted by M. Bor in The Veneti Savli, Bor, Tomazic
(English Edition 1996) by first this subdivision
of the sentence to suit
Slovenian : (J)ENO NI ON TEJ APPIOJ, SE L(E) BOJ, SE
L(E) BOJ AN DETIC OBO S(E) (J)EKUPETARIS and then the
proposed translation: ‘And now, drunken as you are, have fear, have
fear even of children around you, when you travel.’ This was
on a lead container that the author thought was used to give water to a
horse.
FINNIC
BOATPEOPLE THEORY RESPONSE
Referring
to the above example, why would anyone
spend the effort of inscribing this. (Unless it was inscribed by his
wife to remind him not to drink) All the results are of this nature -
on the surface absurd, but the analyst uses poetic inspiration to make
it into poetry, and like the traditional approaches tries to
find a funerary or dedicatory slant to the meaning to make it seem
valid.. This particular inscription given
in my examples is one of the rare ones written in the Roman alphabet
and using dots to mark word boundaries in Roman fashion. Analyst Bor
failed to
get anything using the apparent word boundaries so he decided, as he
did with the other inscriptions, that all the dots were merely
decorations, and one could ignore them. So he ignored what seems
OBVIOUSLY to be word separation marks such as Romans used.
The methodology is so fraught with opportunities for fabrication, that
by
the scientific laws of probability you could use that method to extract
a sentence in any language from it. For example in English
“Anon – on the – apply – sell boy sell boy – and ethic – oh boys –
occupy taris” If the analyst were determined to get something, he could
probably poetically massage this result to get a meaning that, still
absurd, formed a ‘poetic’ sentence. "Anon, on the application to sell
the boy, to sell the
boy, and is it ethical, oh boys, I will occupy Taris." Contrived
axplanation: The writer of the inscription is a slave trader who is
concerned about the ethics of selling a boy and fears he will be
punished in a hellish place called Taris. I am of course exaggerating.
The Slovenian analysts try to get something better - anything that
resonates with burials and entering a new life in heaven would
make it seem acceptable. But as I say, no seasoned scientists of
language will treat the Slovenian interpretations as anything more than
'hearing things' because the analyst does NOT cover the entire body of
inscriptions equally to establish a
lexicon, and grammar and show that all the inscriptions follow the SAME
rules words
and grammar. Language is an organized system, and the analyst
must show that this system is demonstrated by the inscriptions. One
cannot simply say these are all sorts of dialectic distortions of
Slovenian and leave it at that.
C)THE CELTIC
VIEW.
This is another reverse projection from relatively modern times.
It takes the apparent ethnicity of the Brittany Veneti of
recent history and arbitrarily assumes they were Celtic in Roman times
and earlier. This permits the theory to try to project Celtic backwards
endlessly in time, to include the megalithic cultures that created the
stone alignments and hill tombs. As proof of Veneti being
Celtic in Roman times the proponents pursue Celtic interpretations in some words given in Roman texts such as finding Armorica meaning 'men of the sea'
FINNIC BOATPEOPLE THEORY
RESPONSE:
In
the Finnic theory the Brittany Veneti are seen as a colony in a trade
system, in this case predominantly involved with fetching tin from
Britain. As for interpreting names with
Celtic, it may always be possible for any language to find a meaning in
ANY word - the issue is what meaning seems MOST LIKELY. The Finnic
theory, that views all the Veneti
as originally being FInnic, can
translate Veneti
as 'boat people; and Armorica with armu-riigid
meaning 'nations who support one another'
Notwithstanding what Finnic offers, proper science does not
permit us to make pronouncements beyond what the data reasonably
allows.
D)OTHER VIEWS
Such as West Slavs seeing
Vistula Venedi
at the roots of West Slavic ethnicity, There are also some who believe
in the Germanic regions the Wends were Germanic.
FINNIC BOATPEOPLE THEORY RESPONSE:
Such
theories are fine as long as the real proof is there, and they do not
backward project an ethnicity back to Adam and Eve. The Finnic view thoroughly accepts that all the Veneti
colonies assimilated into their surrounding peoples and customers after
the Roman Empire disrupted the original civilization. If we were to
look at the locations of ancient Phoenician colonies we would conclude
the same!
E)THE FINNIC
VIEW BY A. PÄÄBO PRESENTED HERE
The Finnic view is the subject
of the article that follows. Note that the Finnic
interpretation of the example inscription given above (Using Estonian put in parallel) is: jänuni
on teie appi. Selga, selga. Andelik (on) hobus. Jäägu-pida-reisi.
English
parallel:
‘My thirst you have aided. Onto-the-back. Onto-the-back. Thankful (is
the) horse. On-with-the-journey.’
We accepted
that the object was a container dedicated to the horse - perhaps a
cannister for giving the horse some ale as the trailman came from out
of a tavern to continue the journey. In our
analysis the
Roman-style word boundaries were respected. And the fact we get
anything decent at all is remarkable. Word boudaries greatly limit the
possibilities. It has been the absence of word boundaries in MOST
Venetic inscriptions that is the reason it is so easy to come up with
fabricated results. Once there are word boundaries interpretation by a
wrong hypothesis becomes practically impossible! The
Slovenian intepretation of this inscription did not follow the obvious
word boundaries and still the result was somewhat unlikely or absurd.
The entire process of A. Pääbo interpreting the inscriptions
from the Finnic approach is covered in Handbook
of the Veneti Language